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Synapse 25 Showing Light Scuff Marks - Durability of 525 Ballistic?

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  • aedifica
    replied
    Originally posted by Cristina View Post
    Thanks @darcy, I hope the pics I sent to you were useful. I have a question about the DWP coating. When I noticed the marks on my Dawn Travel Cubelet I also noticed that water was absorbed into it in long line patterns. Like, wicking into the fabric. Should water be beading off? From other comments I have seen about Halcyon vs Ballistic Shop bags, I thought that lack of beading was to be expected but now I am not sure. Thanks very much for your attention.
    Oh, I've seen the same thing (or something similar) with my Canyon (210d) shop bag. Like you, I thought it was normal for that fabric, but now I'm wondering!

    Leave a comment:


  • Cristina
    replied
    Originally posted by Darcy View Post
    All,

    Thanks to everyone who responded to my emails so quickly and sent the photos.

    I’m pretty sure what we’re seeing here is very small areas of the DWR (Durable Water Repellent) surface treatment (the water repellant stuff that’s applied to the top of the fabric) turning white-ish after being abraded — not the fabric, but the DWR. That’s why it’s white-ish, and that’s why some (but not all) have reported success using a warm wash cloth or a brush to remove the small area of the abraded DWR. One of the folks who posted in this thread who we have been talking with via email had success using the warm wash cloth method; another will try it and let us know how it works.

    (The exception would be BrendaH’s 210d bag — the fabric on their bag actually looks abraded, so we will be working with them to figure out how that happened. It is worth noting that while 210d is very abrasion resistant, it’s not infallible, and it is not as abrasion resistant as 525d; that’s why we offer bags that may see light use or can be used as packing cubes or other interior organization bags with an exterior of 210d, but we don’t offer bags like the Synapse or Tri-Star in 210d.)

    This came up previously, and I think one or two people reported this to us. We contacted our fabric mill and they thought the issue might be this: the industry is changing over to the more environmentally friendly C6 DWRs, because it's a good thing to do and... the old school chemicals are going to be illegal soon. These new water-repellent treatments, so far, perform very well — but not quite as well — as the old school chemicals, and our mill thought perhaps they were applying too much of the new stuff to make up for that. After that, our mill tested various lower concentrations of the DWR to ensure it was still doing its job with water repellency but wasn’t so thick it would appear visible when the bag came into contact with rough objects; they found a concentration that met their requirements as well as ours, tested it, and we approved. This was back in 2018. Thinking back to then, this was something we wanted to improve but didn’t consider a defect or problem — the small areas that got whiteish marks didn’t significantly impact the water-repellency of the bag and were difficult to see in most lighting situations, unless one was looking for them, and they seemed to be able to be wiped off.

    If anyone is experiencing this issue, our recommendations are:

    First, try taking a soft brush or a dry wash cloth and try lightly brushing the small area of white coating off — like one might brush a quality loafer to remove debris before polishing.

    If that doesn’t help, take a warm wash cloth and a little bit of dish soap and wipe/rub the affected area.

    We’ll also be working on some in-house tests to try to find other ways to remove the DWR markoff. First, we need to replicate it — oddly enough, we don't see this issue on any of our bags.

    Do you guys remember this thread: https://forums.tombihn.com/general-b...tle-spots.html We ended up using Citra-Solv to clean the Nikwax spots off the Founder’s Briefcase; we’re going to test that in-house if we can replicate the DWR markoff and see if that works too. To be clear, though, we have not seen any 525d bags that look anything like that Founder’s Briefcase!

    We’re testing, researching, talking with our fabric suppliers and leaving no stone unturned here — I will post more news when I have some.



    We’ve long noted that Halcyon hides imperfections more than any other fabric we use — whether that’s 1050d, 420d Parapack, 525d, etc. We think that’s because of the two grid patterns Halcyon has — the background diamond grid in the nylon and then, of course, the grid of the UHMWPE. Further, because the UHMWPE is white, it attracts the eye and helps to guide our perceptions away from any imperfections in the base nylon.

    Additionally, lighter color fabrics are always going to be prone to stains or discoloration (thinking of you, my now perfectly imperfect light grey sweater, but those tacos were sure good!) but the nylon diamond grid + UHMWPE white grid in Halcyon helps to mask stains. So, that’s why we’re more willing to choose lighter colors in Halcyon — plus, the UHMWPE white grid makes most of the nylon base colors look even lighter than they actually are. And here I’m digressing way too much, but we considered offering an off-white Halcyon at one point…. but then decided against it because that quality of the UHMWPE white grid attracting the eye away from stains or dirt wouldn’t really be working its magic anymore
    Thanks @darcy, I hope the pics I sent to you were useful. I have a question about the DWP coating. When I noticed the marks on my Dawn Travel Cubelet I also noticed that water was absorbed into it in long line patterns. Like, wicking into the fabric. Should water be beading off? From other comments I have seen about Halcyon vs Ballistic Shop bags, I thought that lack of beading was to be expected but now I am not sure. Thanks very much for your attention.

    Leave a comment:


  • KathyS.
    replied
    Hello All. This is Kathy, the originator of this thread. I am typing this in a bit of rush right now as I have other things to tend to this morning, and I will be back later to provide a more thorough update about my bag. I just wanted to get this out there ASAP, though, that Darcy has been amazing with me and significant progress has been made in addressing the marks on my bag. I couldn't be happier with TB's excellent customer service! More later . . . Thanks Darcy!


    Back Now With My Update:

    Last night I followed Darcy's suggestion to try to clean the marks off my Synapse using a wash cloth and warm soap and water. While I had tried previously to wash the marks off, I had just very lightly rubbed with a damp, smooth/soft sponge and a little liquid hand soap, to no avail. Last night I made a solution of Dawn dishwashing liquid and warm water and scrubbed with a wash cloth using a bit more elbow grease than I did the first time. I repeated the scrubbing process twice last night. One of the marks came completely off and the others, while still present on the bag, are noticeably more faint. So Darcy is quite correct that the fabric itself is not damaged by wear (as I had initially thought). How well I can see the marks that are remaining on my bag is dependent on the light and the angle from which I view the bag. While I'm ok with keeping my current bag, I was a bit concerned that I'd have to keep removing marks from it as I continue to use it, and so at Darcy's suggestion I'll be returning it for a replacement. This way also TB can use the bag to try to figure out how to completely remove the marks and work with other bags that may develop this same issue. I'll also be keeping Darcy updated as to whether the replacement bag develops the same issue as I use it.

    One more time, I want to give a BIG SHOUT OUT to Darcy and TB! I really wasn't expecting this outcome when I started this thread. TB ROCKS and I can't say enough good things about them! Great products and amazing customer service! Thank you!
    Last edited by KathyS.; 11-12-2019, 09:26 PM. Reason: Added An Update

    Leave a comment:


  • cucumber.sandwich
    replied
    That’s good to hear, Kathy. Customer service at TB is really great, so I am not surprised at all. They are all really helpful.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • BrendaH
    replied
    Thanks for the information about the different fabric on the PCSB. If this is thinner (don’t know if less dense is the descriptor) it may show marks more than 525?...

    Leave a comment:


  • Darcy
    replied
    All,

    Thanks to everyone who responded to my emails so quickly and sent the photos.

    I’m pretty sure what we’re seeing here is very small areas of the DWR (Durable Water Repellent) surface treatment (the water repellant stuff that’s applied to the top of the fabric) turning white-ish after being abraded — not the fabric, but the DWR. That’s why it’s white-ish, and that’s why some (but not all) have reported success using a warm wash cloth or a brush to remove the small area of the abraded DWR. One of the folks who posted in this thread who we have been talking with via email had success using the warm wash cloth method; another will try it and let us know how it works.

    (The exception would be BrendaH’s 210d bag — the fabric on their bag actually looks abraded, so we will be working with them to figure out how that happened. It is worth noting that while 210d is very abrasion resistant, it’s not infallible, and it is not as abrasion resistant as 525d; that’s why we offer bags that may see light use or can be used as packing cubes or other interior organization bags with an exterior of 210d, but we don’t offer bags like the Synapse or Tri-Star in 210d.)

    This came up previously, and I think one or two people reported this to us. We contacted our fabric mill and they thought the issue might be this: the industry is changing over to the more environmentally friendly C6 DWRs, because it's a good thing to do and... the old school chemicals are going to be illegal soon. These new water-repellent treatments, so far, perform very well — but not quite as well — as the old school chemicals, and our mill thought perhaps they were applying too much of the new stuff to make up for that. After that, our mill tested various lower concentrations of the DWR to ensure it was still doing its job with water repellency but wasn’t so thick it would appear visible when the bag came into contact with rough objects; they found a concentration that met their requirements as well as ours, tested it, and we approved. This was back in 2018. Thinking back to then, this was something we wanted to improve but didn’t consider a defect or problem — the small areas that got whiteish marks didn’t significantly impact the water-repellency of the bag and were difficult to see in most lighting situations, unless one was looking for them, and they seemed to be able to be wiped off.

    If anyone is experiencing this issue, our recommendations are:

    First, try taking a soft brush or a dry wash cloth and try lightly brushing the small area of white coating off — like one might brush a quality loafer to remove debris before polishing.

    If that doesn’t help, take a warm wash cloth and a little bit of dish soap and wipe/rub the affected area.

    We’ll also be working on some in-house tests to try to find other ways to remove the DWR markoff. First, we need to replicate it — oddly enough, we don't see this issue on any of our bags.

    Do you guys remember this thread: https://forums.tombihn.com/general-b...tle-spots.html We ended up using Citra-Solv to clean the Nikwax spots off the Founder’s Briefcase; we’re going to test that in-house if we can replicate the DWR markoff and see if that works too. To be clear, though, we have not seen any 525d bags that look anything like that Founder’s Briefcase!

    We’re testing, researching, talking with our fabric suppliers and leaving no stone unturned here — I will post more news when I have some.

    Originally posted by jessmakes View Post
    I wonder if it is just the nature of the 525 fabric to show abrasions more, the way that flat paint shows every imperfection in a wall. I've noticed that 1050 fabric seems to be more shiny/luminous than the 525, so microbrasions may just not be as obvious...
    We’ve long noted that Halcyon hides imperfections more than any other fabric we use — whether that’s 1050d, 420d Parapack, 525d, etc. We think that’s because of the two grid patterns Halcyon has — the background diamond grid in the nylon and then, of course, the grid of the UHMWPE. Further, because the UHMWPE is white, it attracts the eye and helps to guide our perceptions away from any imperfections in the base nylon.

    Additionally, lighter color fabrics are always going to be prone to stains or discoloration (thinking of you, my now perfectly imperfect light grey sweater, but those tacos were sure good!) but the nylon diamond grid + UHMWPE white grid in Halcyon helps to mask stains. So, that’s why we’re more willing to choose lighter colors in Halcyon — plus, the UHMWPE white grid makes most of the nylon base colors look even lighter than they actually are. And here I’m digressing way too much, but we considered offering an off-white Halcyon at one point…. but then decided against it because that quality of the UHMWPE white grid attracting the eye away from stains or dirt wouldn’t really be working its magic anymore

    Leave a comment:


  • Shiva
    replied
    Yes: I have had the same issue with my 525 Side Kick for example which does not get rough used at all. But after just two trips overseas, they do look a lot more scuffed than my 10 year old Synapse 19 (cordura) after all these years of rough use. I think the 525 is durable in terms of tears and so on; but not in terms of appearance, compared to the 1050 Ballistic; or the halycon.

    Leave a comment:


  • KathyS.
    replied
    Originally posted by jessmakes View Post
    I wonder if it is just the nature of the 525 fabric to show abrasions more, the way that flat paint shows every imperfection in a wall. I've noticed that 1050 fabric seems to be more shiny/luminous than the 525, so microbrasions may just not be as obvious...
    Could be you're correct about the 525 fabric. I think if it's the case that 525 shows micro abrasions easily then TB should give customers a heads up prior to purchase of the bag (and this knowledge will also assist customers in making the decision whether to go for this fabric or the halcyon). Knowing in advance what to expect would dispel the concern one feels when marks start showing up within a few uses.

    Leave a comment:


  • KathyS.
    replied
    Reply to Cucumber.Sandwich -

    As a matter of fact Darcy from TB emailed me this morning upon reading my post. I didn't realize they read and monitor their forums so attentively but, wow, I'm very impressed with the customer service and quick attention to my concern. What a great company! Per her request I sent Darcy pictures of the scuffs and we'll see what she says. I want to reiterate and underscore that the marks on my bag thus far are a small few, very light and noticeable mainly up close to the bag. I would not necessarily ask for a replacement at this point, only if the number of marks continues to grow and get worse. If the cause of the marks is a bad batch of fabric, replacement may ultimately be an option but I'm really not there yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • jessmakes
    replied
    I wonder if it is just the nature of the 525 fabric to show abrasions more, the way that flat paint shows every imperfection in a wall. I've noticed that 1050 fabric seems to be more shiny/luminous than the 525, so microbrasions may just not be as obvious...

    Leave a comment:


  • cucumber.sandwich
    replied
    Have you emailed TB? I bet in this situation, they might be open to discussing a replacement. Maybe it’s the lot number of the fabric that there was an issue with.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • KathyS.
    replied
    Thanks for the responses so far. It sounds like I'm not the only one experiencing the scuffing issue. I wonder if the folks at TB are aware of it? It seems they should inform their customers that this will (or could) be an issue with the 525 ballistic nylon since one of the reasons (I assume) most of us are spending the kind of money we do for their products is the durability, which in my mind would include the ability of the fabric to endure wear. My previous luggage system that I used for a good 15 years was by Eagle Creek. I actually still have those bags and aside from some very minor fraying on some edges and places where the plastic is a bit scratched (from being checked in), the fabric on those bags is still in great shape. The rate it's going with my Synapse I'm afraid I'm going to have a very scuffed up bag in just a couple of years.

    Leave a comment:


  • x3n0n
    replied
    Originally posted by BrendaH View Post
    My coyote 525 PCSB also shows white scuff marks from carrying a camera battery inside but this never shows on my black halcyon PCSB which I’ve used the same way.
    For what it's worth, I think the only Coyote PCSB so far is in 210d ballistic, not 525d (the 525d Coyote items are expected to be available sometime within the next year).

    Leave a comment:


  • Cristina
    replied
    My 525 definitely shows marks. I couldn’t say if it was a scuff or if it was pulling paint off a wall I had brushed against (for instance). My 210 shows marks like crazy (I swear even rain makes water marks) and the lighter colors are particularly sensitive to marking. I don’t have this problem with Halcyon. Actual scuffs on Halcyon don’t tend to show as much in my experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • BihnBag
    replied
    This is a bit concerning given the supposed deprecation of 1050 for 525 even on the travel bags.

    I wonder if anyone has experience checking bags made in 525 and could comment on scuffing there.

    Leave a comment:

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