Pushing the limits

[bchaplin]

If you don't actually smack someone in the back of the head or step on someone's foot you're doing fine. That's what happens when the seats are mashed so close together. The lack of any legislation mandating a minimum seat pitch is actually the subject of current debate. Some people (including myself) would argue that it should be regulated for safety reasons. With so many people packed into increasingly smaller spaces, it would be more difficult to evacuate in an emergency. Not to mention health issues like deep vein thrombosis.

sujo look how everybody is agreeing with the conclusion you drew yourself from your experiance :-D

I think traveling is a stressfull time and mistakes or missjudgments happen. How great when we can share them after the fact and kind of share the lesson? For me it was the lightbulb that went on once I realised that I am giving the person in front of me a good shake each time I stand up when I use their headrest to help me do so. Ever since I do an aquward little wiggle to get upright not sure if it is me being to clumbsy or if the tight space is responsible but I find it not too easy to get up WITHOUT the backrast of the seat in front of me.

Ilkyway

[GrussGott]

This is a picture of a Tristar and Co-Pilot under the seat of a Southwest Airlines 737.

Exactly - that bag clearly does not fit fully under the seat and is sticking out by at least 2-3 inches. Further the shoulder strap is the first place the center passengers right foot is going to hook in an emergency panicked evacuation, tripping them, and preventing the window passenger from exiting. The curve of the seat base is to provide for foot travel by design, so for a bag to "fit" under the seat it should be fully behind the back of the seat and the curved base (and ideally so should the straps).

It's like speed limits: they're very clear, but people exceed them all of the time and police allow it all of the time, so the rule might start to seem ambiguous ... and nobody loves the convenience (and fun) of speeding more than me

The real danger is when we get away with breaking the rules so often that we forget what they are or why they exist in the first place.

[sujo]

Thanks, moriond! This is correct: "So maybe the underseat space is a moving target, that shifts with carriers and aircraft models."

On the United 737 I was boarding, I was in the Economy Plus section. So the seats were a bit larger with a tad more space between rows. I'm used to this space and putting the Tri-Star there. My second flight, an Airbus 312, narrower seats packed very close together. You can't walk in that seat space with nothing under seats.

It would be nice to know the rules. I just remembered something. I think Frank II once posted a good tip (maybe on his web site). Search for the dog carrier size allowed as carry on on a plane. That will define what can fit under a seat. I'm gonna try that from now on. In the meantime, I'll just start gate checking when it's offered. I will almost always be in that group anyway.

[carrot]

My understanding was that the personal item sizers for each airline represent the maximum size of luggage that will fit under seat of their tightest planes.

Is that not the case?

The Co-Pilot and S19 fit very comfortably in those sizers, but I always assumed the Tri-Star was a bit too big. I always want the maximum amount of leg room on flights, so the S19 or Co-Pilot is as big as I'll go if I can help it.

[sujo]

Thought I'd bring this thread full circle.

On my return flights, I flew Southwest. I paid for Early Bird check-in, so was assured some overhead space.

On my connection in Denver, the flight was maybe half full, so seats and overhead bins were no issues. I had my Tri-Star in a bin all by itself, but just before take off, I pulled it down and put it under the middle seat (no one else was in my row). It fit horizontally (top handles facing out). I did that because if I would have left it in the bin, it would have been sliding all over the place and I would never have been able to reach it once we landed without climbing up on the seats and crawling in there after it.

For the record, Southwest personal item dimensions are 18.5 x 8.5 x 13.5 inches (47 x 21.5 x 34.3 cm)

I think I've made this observation, the seat structure of the 737 is very odd. The space under the aisle seat is very narrow; space under the middle seat is huge (at least 19 inches wide); and space under the window seat is "normal." However, Southwest does not have any electronic boxes under the seats, so the space is open. The United seats, at least in Economy plus, all had boxes and compartments for electric plugs and such. So, even though the two spaces are the same size, United space is hindered by add-ons.

My lessons learned for this trip are to know the airline's baggage rules and adhere to them as closely as possible. Be prepared to adapt, should it be required, and don't just assume your bag will fit in a bin or under the seat, even though many of us have gotten away with it before.

Thanks to everyone who commented. This has been a good, though humbling, exercise for me.

[bouncing]

I'm one of those people who won't sacrifice legroom for stowage. My legs, spine, and back are more expensive than my clothes, so if I eventually lose a bag in the name of comfort and health, so be it.

For this reason, I actually typically fly with two bags, or at least a removable laptop holder with handles, so that if I have to check my bag, I can pull my laptop out as a personal item. If I have to check my bag, I have to check my bag. But I find that's seldom the case if you fly with a soft-sided duffle bag, like my Aeronaut 30. Usually I can even find a bin full of suitcases, put mine on top of an existing suitcase, and close the bin.

With respect to rules and safety, actually United does have a "personal item" measurement basket you can put your bag in to see if it qualifies. I suppose it's fair that your Tristar was likely over their published rules, and the flight attendant's own job may depend on her faithfully enforcing the rules as they're written. Having said that, I'm not particularly motivated by the emergency exit rationale for stuff on the floor unless you're in an exit row.

Flying is by far the absolute safest way to travel. On a boat, taxi, train, boat, or hell -- rickshaw -- you won't find such hard-and-fast rules about blocking a row. What if you're in a window seat, where literally the only person you could block is yourself? But still, the rules are the rules, and they must exist or everything is a judgment call. When everything is a judgment call, rules are haphazard and shouting travel rage ensues. Rick Steves, patron saint of one bag travel, also only carries a bag that legitimately will fit under the seat in front of him and he says he sometimes has to check a bag. If you have to check your bag, that's how it goes. Just get a laptop cache handles on it and you won't be separate from it, even if you're separated from your clothes.

And off-topic, but perhaps if the airlines stopped trying to milk every penny with baggage fees, people who actually want to check their bags could and we could, once again, have ample overhead bin space like we used to. In parts of the world where baggage fees don't exist, I've never had a problem with overhead bins.

[BWeaves]

I do like to look out the window to pass the time. However, I also have to go to the restroom once or twice. It's hard enough to get in and out of the row of seats without tripping over someone's luggage. This has nothing to do with exiting in an emergency, but just general getting up and moving around during the flight. I always make sure my bag doesn't stick out. But I also want the leg room.

I remember back around 9/11, when everyone was required to check their bags, and you weren't allowed hardly any carry on items. I don't remember any fees for checked bags, either. But boarding and deplaning was actually pleasant. I can't remember when it suddenly switched to excessive baggage fees and everyone carrying on as much as they could.

Now, I get it. I like to one-bag it with a carry on if I can, but if I can't, I'm fine with checking a hardsided suitcase. I just plan ahead for that and use different luggage.

[Go Navy]

I fly Southwest fairly often, with EarlyBird, and always grab an aisle seat. My CoPilot fits pretty well under the seat directly in front of me...another aisle seat. But, you're right about the varying dimensions of the three under seat spaces.

[GrussGott]

With respect to rules and safety, actually United does have a "personal item" measurement basket you can put your bag in to see if it qualifies. ... I'm not particularly motivated by the emergency exit rationale for stuff on the floor unless you're in an exit row. ... When everything is a judgment call, rules are haphazard ... If you have to check your bag, that's how it goes.

The measurement baskets are meant to screen out that which is explicitly not allowed, NOT to guarantee that which is 100% for sure guaranteed allowed.

I'd say the most important thing is there is only one rule: it is the flight crew's job, their trained profession, to ensure our safety, and all calls are their call.

None of us are entitled to anything; it's the flight crew's call on issues and our job as polite and respectful passengers is to let them do their job and respect their judgement. When we do that we uphold not only a social contract, but also the Contract of Carriage that is part of the ticket we purchased.

Here's a snippet from United's Contract of Carriage that we agreed to when we bought tickets, other airlines are similar:

Carry-on Baggage is subject to the following additional conditions:

Operations, space constraints, security directives and/or other safety considerations may require limitations to the allowable Carry-on Baggage on a specific flight.
UA reserves the right in its sole and absolute discretion to determine the suitability and place of storage of any items to be carried in the cabin of the aircraft.
UA reserves the right to check a Passenger’s Carry-on Baggage for any reason, including if the Carry-on Baggage cannot be safely stowed, or the Carry-on Baggage is not compliant with the Maximum Outside Linear Dimensions specified in section 2) above.

And so on. The one rule is it's their call.

[Perseffect]

I have a Tristar and know it can fit under the seat (albeit, likely pushing the limits of being strictly under it). But I'd hate to travel like that with no space for my legs/feet. I think its a great bag for carry on in overhead bins, but not under the seat.

[GrussGott]

An interesting update relevant to this thread ...

Last night as my wife and I were printing boarding passes for our Swiss Air flight from Zurich to Vienna we were at first dismayed to learn they'd switched aircraft (from a Fokker to an A320) and it eliminated our seat assignments, reseating us in some really crappy seats ... but good news! We could still switch seats and there were 2 exit row seats open and not much else to boot, what luck! So of course we hopped on that.

So today as we're getting seated in our roomy exit row the FA informs us that we can't put our backpacks under the seats (S25) for take-off and landing as we're in an exit row, i.e., no bags of any sort under the seat except during the flight Well, fine, so I remove my PCSB and stow our back packs ... oops! Nope, can't have the PCSB even on my lap for take-off and landing in an exit row (nor my wife her purse). Oh, and coats have to go up too unless we're wearing them.

So anyway, not sure if other intra-EU airlines do this, but at least on Swiss Air no bags of any size under the seat or on your lap in exit rows for take-off and landing.

It's karma for my posts in this thread.

[pammy]

So anyway, not sure if other intra-EU airlines do this, but at least on Swiss Air no bags of any size under the seat or on your lap in exit rows for take-off and landing.

On an inner Finland flight from Helsinki to Rovaniemi, we flew Norwegian Air round trip. And same thing, no bags were allowed under the seats in front of us and also no coats unless worn while seated in the exit row. Everything had to be stowed in the overhead. It was the first time we had encountered that. The FA explained that the exit row had to be completed clear with no possible obstructions in case of an emergency. I don't recall it was for just takeoff and landing, but it could have been. We were happy to comply, just sort of surprised.

[Denises]

Qantas do the same for exit row seats, just for take off and landing. The cabin crew come along and put any bags and coats in the overhead lockers, and then they'll take them out again for use use in flight.

[Vecturist]

When I flew to/from Canada on West Jet two years ago and got exit row seats, I was told no bags under the seat for takeoff/landing as well.

[daisy]

Ditto on australian domestic flights (virgin, and i assume others).

Cabin staff reserve space in overheads for exit row passengers and will get items down for you after takeoff.

We have the same issue when flying long haul in business class as there is nowhere on the floor to store anything other than a very small bag.