Synik Preorder?? Sold Out (2nd attempt)

[dgentile]

Ok, this rant is my second attempt - the first one got posted, then delted by myself on the mobile phone by accident as I wanted to correct a typo, and the phone's browser sort of auto selected "delete" when I tapped into the subject field to edit this.


I have actually waited - paitently like most here - for the promised preorder on the new synik line up to open for ordering.
Of course there's a time-zone difference and when the Synik Pre-Order finally appeared to be online I was of course in the middle of work with a customer and a really busy schedule ahead.
(yeah, tom bihn, I have to work, to afford your bags)...


Now I know the pre-order time frame was limited from the very start to around a week (13th to 20th if memory serves me well) and it was indeed statet that it might end sooner if sales numbers are high.

I've been running my own business for more than 20 years and that brings along a certain understanding for marketing and sales tactics... I understand fully, that making a product look "scarce" - hard to get - limited can be a great tool markting wise to drive sales quickly... and frankly, there's nothing "wrong" with that - to some extend.

But the thing is this: the preorder, which I was eager to pull the trigger on because I had a specific trip in mind for which the new synik would have been a perfect companion, barely lasted a day, in fact it didn't last even a day, it didn't last 18 hours from the looks of it.
whilst I'm happy for the folks at tom bihn, that sales are probably going well - this leaves a rather sour taste in my pre-order wallet.

Also I believe that any busniess as long standing as tom bihn, actually has a pretty decent sort of accurate estimate when sthey launch a new product of what's going to happen. And I for one simply don't buy the "sold out in less than a day" for a pre-order thing.

The beatuy behind PRE-Ordering before production starts would surely be the fact that a company can "test the waters" safely... sort of like some - even established - companies turn to kickstarter & co to get funding and support for a new product.
I even get that there is bound to be a limit - a production baseline that if too many are pre-ordered the estimated time of delivery will be very difficult to meet also probably wanting to stock up at the same time on the new product, keep current production items going etc...
But really, less than 24hrs?

And now there's this teasing message that could have been phrased by a number crunching book keeper for some famous italian mob family - that perhaps - yes, perhaps - there's some more to be open for preordering on a specific thursday, single day.

here's the gist though, currently my desire for supporting a preorder run has reached the temperature equivalent of a hard cold winter day in northern siberia.
Pre-Order: meaning, paying well in advance of a product delivery, including full shipping which is a staggering 45-65 depending on where in europe I want it delivered to.... - that is around 15% or more of the product's value btw... makes me look at the 4kg aliexpress package on my desk that got delivered this morning with machined parts for a project, shipped for free from the other side of the globe in 15 days...) .

again, 18 or less hours of actual preordering time frame, instead of around a week? I would have fully understood if say saturday came and by the evening it would have been "sold out"
(again, how exactly it can be "sold out" is tricky, I'm sure it would not be that difficult to adjust production, especially when you see the product sells like hot cake).
Now on thursday, like many, I have a pretty full schedule at work... there's two clients to meet, there's production to be done, there's even a shopping run for speciality parts that are sort of slow to be shipped otherwise.... and frankly, by the time I would be willing to sit down in front of the computer, check if tom bihn has more preorder items, flap out the credit card and spend around 350$ for goods to be deliverd in late october, I guess the extremely scarce quantity of packs available, perhaps not even in my desired colour scheme, will again be sold out.

I'm sorry but I have to say this, that type of sales strategy is a turn off.
it's not like I'm hoping to buy a cloned-living-one-of-a-kind-miniature T-Rex... or a talking unicorn that's good a preparing my favourite sushi... all I've had hoped to achieve over this mornings delicious coffee was to use my free morning (yeah, I work weekends and today is my day off) to happily support a company with a preorder.... which frankly I had not anticipation of being stopped dead in its track only 18 hours after it's launch.

At this point I'm sort of on the edge about the entire thing and any related purchase - simply because I dislike the methodical approach to creation of a hype of sorts with all the bag reviews out there and things, and a sort of promised pre-order of around a week, then killed in under 20 hours with another "hopeful 1 day" in the loop...
frankly it screams marketing tactics - and not the kind of marketing tactics I can find funny.
again, running my own business these are the decisions each individual company can make on their own - and keep the reasons unpublished or publish a long story or whatever works for them. I also get that smaller businesses aren't high volume producers planning in the thousands or more production pieces... and there's a natural scarcity around the resulting items thus.
But common tom bihn: less than 24hrs is stretching that tactic thin, really thin.



And last but truly not least:
your website has malfunctions.
The lovely option to "sign up" to be notified once the preorder becomes available: guess what - it doesn't work.
I've tried it on two different computers and one "flagship" (read: android 9 and latest updates) smartphone... I can type in my address but tapping or clicking on the "sign up" button does, well, nothing. On the positive side, I didn't get any spam (read: i've checked my spam folder and nope) either. But no notice email as well.


yes, this is a rant - you don't need to like it, or support it.... it's opinionated


PS: I now go back to talk to the talking unicorn, which didn't get replaced by the sushi making variety, because, well the preorder was sold out.

[RosemaryOrchard]

While it's a shame the SN22 pre-orders ended so quickly as Tom Bihn has a limited production capacity I absolutely understand why. Now they can re-open pre-orders in a few days if possible but with an estimated delivery of "November" or further out - instead of letting as many people as possible pre-order and then having to email lots of them to say "well we promised it in October but because so many people ordered it yours will be with you in February".

When I tried signing up (on my iPhone and on my Mac using Firefox) I got a box below the email box showing that I'm subscribed to the email notification. Is it possible that you have an adblocker preventing the data from being sent correctly?

[dgentile]

While it's a shame the SN22 pre-orders ended so quickly as Tom Bihn has a limited production capacity I absolutely understand why. Now they can re-open pre-orders in a few days if possible but with an estimated delivery of "November" or further out - instead of letting as many people as possible pre-order and then having to email lots of them to say "well we promised it in October but because so many people ordered it yours will be with you in February".

When I tried signing up (on my iPhone and on my Mac using Firefox) I got a box below the email box showing that I'm subscribed to the email notification. Is it possible that you have an adblocker preventing the data from being sent correctly?

Rosemary,

The signup is not working here - neither on my macbook, my surface pro nor my smartphone ....
type the mail, hit "sign up" - and zilch... no "thank you ..." nothing.
I'm not a computer technician, but far from useless either... and this, well, doesn't work on my end on three different devices (Same browser though, which is firefox).


In regards to production limitation, again as I've said in my first post:
I guess and believe that tom bihn is a rather experienced company. With expereience there's a certain level of ability to plan ahead.
the less then one day to sold out status is anything but unexpected for a business with experience in 99% of the cases - it's deliberate.
it's what I dislike in this case.
I find it absolutely hard if not next to impossible to believe that a company with the experience like tom bihn, long standing, can't make better predictions on how sales will drive.

the thing is this... if they would have limited the preorder as dramatically, they could have easily said so in the announcement, and then again, let it run officially for say 48 hours.
I'd be perfectly fine if it be over in 20 hours... but announcing a week long run, and kill it after less than 20hrs - that sounds a bit off in my book.
And of course - what else - there's another day coming up, this time just one day... so everyone who's sort of on the fence is being driven to rush their order on the second very limited time frame after "witnessing how insanely quick the first run went"....

having been running a business for a while, I simply can't find this a coincidence and it's a marketing ploy I sort of dislike on a general basis.

say between forums, between signup for presale (if it would work) and direct emails and other marketing relevant feedback (website analytics, remote posts, etc..) a business should be able to get a rough estimate of interest... and build the sales drive accordingly.
setting up a week long run, and be out after less than a day - that is what makes it hard to believe in terms of "oh wow,..." and rather "Oh, ... I see.".

I guess the way the preorder is done is just not what I like as a genral practice.
and frankly, I don't think I'll sit around interupting my schedule on thrusday only for a repeat excercise of the same.

so perhaps I'm buying one of the packs - I still think they're great - once they're available as a stock item.
Simply because I feel the way the preorder is conducted isn't a great way to do stuff like that.

[tebnewyork]

Please take a minute to consider production capacity over sales tactics. You attribute all the worst intentions to the company vs. a simple reality.

Also, a little history, before pre-orders there were debut days where the product went on sale the moment it debuted. That made for a mad scramble without time to get any information on what you were ordering. The current pre-orders are infinitely better.

Also, when the company finds that they can alter other production schedules to accommodate orders of very popular new items they do it. Tom Bihn is one of the best customer service focused companies out there so perhaps you might want to send a note to customer service before you continue to rant here.

[ButtUglyJeff]

email - emailus@tombihn.com

Send a message to customer service. Tell them you regret not getting not getting a S22, and ask if you can be updated on canceled orders. There will be canceled orders.

Kat was wonderful to me. I told her I regretted not ordering a L15 with Coyote interior. Sure enough, a month later one became available. And I lived happily ever after...

I get preorder frustration, but I'll take that system leaps and bounds over the Kickstarter/Indigogo/any website that encourages backing a product without customer protection model of doing business.

[dgentile]

While it's a shame the SN22 pre-orders ended so quickly as Tom Bihn has a limited production capacity I absolutely understand why. Now they can re-open pre-orders in a few days if possible but with an estimated delivery of "November" or further out - instead of letting as many people as possible pre-order and then having to email lots of them to say "well we promised it in October but because so many people ordered it yours will be with you in February".

When I tried signing up (on my iPhone and on my Mac using Firefox) I got a box below the email box showing that I'm subscribed to the email notification. Is it possible that you have an adblocker preventing the data from being sent correctly?

Rosemary,

The signup is not working here - neither on my macbook, my surface pro nor my smartphone ....
type the mail, hit "sign up" - and zilch... no "thank you ..." nothing.
I'm not a computer technician, but far from useless either... and this, well, doesn't work on my end on three different devices (Same browser though, which is firefox).


In regards to production limitation, again as I've said in my first post:
I guess and believe that tom bihn is a rather experienced company. With expereience there's a certain level of ability to plan ahead.
the less then one day to sold out status is anything but unexpected for a business with experience in 99% of the cases - it's deliberate.
it's what I dislike in this case.
I find it absolutely hard if not next to impossible to believe that a company with the experience like tom bihn, long standing, can't make better predictions on how sales will drive.

the thing is this... if they would have limited the preorder as dramatically, they could have easily said so in the announcement, and then again, let it run officially for say 48 hours.
I'd be perfectly fine if it be over in 20 hours... but announcing a week long run, and kill it after less than 20hrs - that sounds a bit off in my book.
And of course - what else - there's another day coming up, this time just one day... so everyone who's sort of on the fence is being driven to rush their order on the second very limited time frame after "witnessing how insanely quick the first run went"....

having been running a business for a while, I simply can't find this a coincidence and it's a marketing ploy I sort of dislike on a general basis.

say between forums, between signup for presale (if it would work) and direct emails and other marketing relevant feedback (website analytics, remote posts, etc..) a business should be able to get a rough estimate of interest... and build the sales drive accordingly.
setting up a week long run, and be out after less than a day - that is what makes it hard to believe in terms of "oh wow,..." and rather "Oh, ... I see.".

I guess the way the preorder is done is just not what I like as a genral practice.
and frankly, I don't think I'll sit around interupting my schedule on thrusday only for a repeat excercise of the same.

so perhaps I'm buying one of the packs - I still think they're great - once they're available as a stock item.
Simply because I feel the way the preorder is conducted isn't a great way to do stuff like that.

[dgentile]

email - emailus@tombihn.com

Send a message to customer service. Tell them you regret not getting not getting a S22, and ask if you can be updated on canceled orders. There will be canceled orders.

Kat was wonderful to me. I told her I regretted not ordering a L15 with Coyote interior. Sure enough, a month later one became available. And I lived happily ever after...

I get preorder frustration, but I'll take that system leaps and bounds over the Kickstarter/Indigogo/any website that encourages backing a product without customer protection model of doing business.

Kickstarter etc... I get the problem that exists there, albeit it again would be sort of unfair to blame the entire thing when a number of successful projects have emerged. (but yes, the "system" is suffering a lot of problems for sure).
I brought it up as a reference mentioning that even established brands use it at times to start new items and "test the waters" - but I am NOT implicating that tom bihn should switch to kickstartet & Co for pre-orders.

What I'm suggesting is simply this:
either make it clear HOW limited the pre-order run is going to be ... like: Look 100 items for the most popular colour combos (statistically), and 20 for the lesser favoured options.
(the numnbers I've mentioned have no reality check.... it's just an example).
That way, everyone would be able to see how realistically limited a pre-order is.

I for one was like: ok, I'll do it in the morning after the launch, over my coffee... well it didn't happen.
I had zero notion to suspect the pre-order would be over in less than 20hrs when it was announce for a week long thing with some limits.
Again, if it would have been "over" by friday or staurdays, half the time over, I'd be rather much understanding.
the issue is: less than 24hrs... a sort of not working sign up ,.... and then a potential repeat experience on a limited thursday... and maybe if that is sold out again within half a day on a wednesday the week there after.
Why not just say: Look first production run is totally limited to 400 items across all colours... and sort of make it prominent how much of that is "used up" or "left avaialable"...
Technically absolutely easy without any modifications to any halfway decent e-shop system.

[ButtUglyJeff]

I'm not going to debate a frustrated person. And I get that you'd like a little more information during the preorder process. Tom Bihn limits aren't really based on materials or parts limitations, but actual production limits because bags have to be made by people, not machines of mass production. They have to be able to make the preorder run and still have a labor force available to refill all the existing bags and accessories that are also being sold out. Customer service is not a call center full of bodies, but instead its just a few people. I don't think they have the human capacity of maintaining a countdown ticker, especially considering people cancel as well as order...

This all might be a big nothing burger, and the crew might be able to figure out a way to add production to this run. I'll leave you be, I get you're frustrated, but I do suggest signing up for notification or reach out to customer service. They do really want you happy...

[balakay]

I highly doubt they expected the bags to sell out in less than a day. TB was very open about when the pre order started, how to get notified, and how the process works. This was my first pre order with them and I simply went on my CPU at lunch (eastern time) and completed my order without any problems. I’m sure you could have found 5 minutes of your day to order if you decided it was a priority.

Sure, it sucks that they reached capacity and some people missed out. I’m sure, with the unexpected popularity, that they’re trying to determine how many more bags they can make if they reduce production of other bags and products, because they want their customers to be happy, but they also have to look out for their employees as well.

Let’s say they decided to make the bags for 10 weeks before shipping, that’s 400 hours per person that is making bags (assuming 40 hours per week), and each bag takes 4 hours to make, that’s 100 bags made per person allocated. If they decided to dedicate 5 people to making these bags, that’s 500 bags in 10 weeks. Throw in that different people will likely be cutting/sewing different parts and you plan to 80% capacity, so now that’s 400 bags available. For every additional person that can make bags, you get 80 more. Opening a 2nd preorder for 80 bags mag not be worth it, because then a lot of people might still get left out and feel like they were targeted, like you. Right now the safest bet is likely to start making the pre orders, try to ship pre-orders early, and then open up the site for regular orders as they can make more. Then it’ll feel like any other bag, if the color you want is in stock, buy it now and get it shipped ASAP.

They’re a small company that’s doing their best, cut them a break and enjoy the superior products they make.

[metroflex]

Rosemary,

The signup is not working here - neither on my macbook, my surface pro nor my smartphone ....
type the mail, hit "sign up" - and zilch... no "thank you ..." nothing.
I'm not a computer technician, but far from useless either... and this, well, doesn't work on my end on three different devices (Same browser though, which is firefox).

You should check your spam folder and see if it ended up in there. I use Gmail as my primary email account and have had no problems receiving any notification emails from Tom Bihn, but it could be possible depending on how Gmail/email services is "taught" to catch spam.

Safe to say, it's pretty clear that TB severely underestimated the demand for this bag, and you can not really fault them for it. Both are pricier than the Synapse counterparts and not just by "a little bit" - but a pretty significant amount. I imagine TB took that into account and modeled projections based on price - I mean $300+taxes & shipping for a bag is not an easy pill to swallow, especially when you have other comparable bags from other competitors in the $150-$250 range. Kind of curious as to how they projected their initial supply run amounts, hoping Darcy could maybe provide a little insight!

I get the disappointment, truly - but bashing TB isn't constructive and is a fruitless endeavor. Take solace in the fact that they recognized the issue and have actual plans to rectify it, and is taking action. When you do get one in your hands, I hope you post a review - I always enjoy reading reviews of TB bags from other users. Cheers!

[Tonya]

I hear you, but I wonder if TB was caught by surprise with the amount of preorders. Don't get me wrong... TB is probably jumping for joy over the sales (except now they have to get to work - oy vey!) but I have a feeling TB was sincere when they planned for a week. I'm also rather turned off my a lot of marketing hype and buying frenzies, which is why I avoid used car lots and auctions (ebay included) but I don't get that vibe from this experience. Of course, I was able to order my bag so that may influence my feelings, but if I couldn't have gotten it, I could have easily saved my money and waited because it's only a bag and I have others. Though I totally understand your frustration if you had already planned for it! I've been in the same boat a few times, and it's disappointing to say the least.

Anyway, hope your post helped you to get the frustration off of your chest a bit. And yes! Contact TB asap regarding cancellations. I have a feeling that several buyers got caught up in the pre-order frenzy and may soon decide to wait instead. Best wishes & I hope you get your bag soon!

[dgentile]

I highly doubt they expected the bags to sell out in less than a day. TB was very open about when the pre order started, how to get notified, and how the process works. This was my first pre order with them and I simply went on my CPU at lunch (eastern time) and completed my order without any problems. I’m sure you could have found 5 minutes of your day to order if you decided it was a priority.

Sure, it sucks that they reached capacity and some people missed out. I’m sure, with the unexpected popularity, that they’re trying to determine how many more bags they can make if they reduce production of other bags and products, because they want their customers to be happy, but they also have to look out for their employees as well.

Let’s say they decided to make the bags for 10 weeks before shipping, that’s 400 hours per person that is making bags (assuming 40 hours per week), and each bag takes 4 hours to make, that’s 100 bags made per person allocated. If they decided to dedicate 5 people to making these bags, that’s 500 bags in 10 weeks. Throw in that different people will likely be cutting/sewing different parts and you plan to 80% capacity, so now that’s 400 bags available. For every additional person that can make bags, you get 80 more. Opening a 2nd preorder for 80 bags mag not be worth it, because then a lot of people might still get left out and feel like they were targeted, like you. Right now the safest bet is likely to start making the pre orders, try to ship pre-orders early, and then open up the site for regular orders as they can make more. Then it’ll feel like any other bag, if the color you want is in stock, buy it now and get it shipped ASAP.

They’re a small company that’s doing their best, cut them a break and enjoy the superior products they make.

Sure I could have found five minutes - I actually did, several times that day - only to see that the preorder hasn't started yet,... then after that I was like, yeah, no big deal, I'll do it in the morning... at which point, the thing was gone.


I get exactly what you're putting out with the math here... but this is exactly it, you can "easily" determine well in advance how many bags you would maximally be able to make between the time the preorder closes and the time the shipping should start, be on the safe side and reduce that figure by 1-5%... to allow for initial production issues etc.

here's my bit of criticism in the process: name that figure from day one.
it could give people - like myself - a very easy insight into how fast you'd be needing to act if you wanted one, and also get a sort of prediction of realistically getting in the lot.
frankly at no point during the entire reveal-to-preorder publishing of news, I got the feeling that I'd have less than a day's time to actually get it ordered... supported by the 1-week period specified, I had no inclination to believe that less than a day wouldn't suffice.


Sure it could be worse - and it may be a minor complaint (and nope, frustrated I aint, just slightly irritated by the procedure)

[dgentile]

You should check your spam folder and see if it ended up in there. I use Gmail as my primary email account and have had no problems receiving any notification emails from Tom Bihn, but it could be possible depending on how Gmail/email services is "taught" to catch spam.

Safe to say, it's pretty clear that TB severely underestimated the demand for this bag, and you can not really fault them for it. Both are pricier than the Synapse counterparts and not just by "a little bit" - but a pretty significant amount. I imagine TB took that into account and modeled projections based on price - I mean $300+taxes & shipping for a bag is not an easy pill to swallow, especially when you have other comparable bags from other competitors in the $150-$250 range. Kind of curious as to how they projected their initial supply run amounts, hoping Darcy could maybe provide a little insight!

I get the disappointment, truly - but bashing TB isn't constructive and is a fruitless endeavor. Take solace in the fact that they recognized the issue and have actual plans to rectify it, and is taking action. When you do get one in your hands, I hope you post a review - I always enjoy reading reviews of TB bags from other users. Cheers!

Spam: as mentioned, checked, no spam either... it simply failed to work - for whatever reason I can only make guesses from firewall / filtering at the local network I was using when I tried it to compatibility issues with firefox... really, I don't know, but having tried it three times (or four actually ) and with the same result ... well.
this might be something TB wants to check with their tech guys...


and yes, I can agree with you at the hiked up price it was a bit more of a gamble than just an updated synapse for example.
And yet, it was mentioned pretty early that it was going to be more expensive.. the frame sheet would be included too..
Shipping is of course not TB's direct "problem" (international shipping) albeit I'd be happy to wait a tad longer for the delivery if shipping would be half or a third of the options they currently give... to my home address shipping a bag from TB is a whopping 65$ to a neighbouring country at a friend's house it still would be 45$.
I'm pretty certain there are cheaper shipping services out there.


And yes crossing the 200$ mark there's a lot of bags to pick in the range between 200 and 350$.
Still I think price aside, a max. no. of items to be produced in the time frame would have been easy to calculate (it certainly has been done) and publish.
that's sort of the point of my criticism of the process - that by having it "open for a week" there is no real sense of highly limited first run stock to be produced.
but say, stating that a total lot of 300 bags in various colours are for the pre-order slot, well I'd have guessed this would sort of sell out within 48 hours.


again, the sort of unpredictability about the preorder is what I found somewhat off-putting... that's why I'm inclined to wait for final release.

[Tonya]

Just popped over the the Synik pages and saw this... "The Synik 22 pre-order sold out more quickly than expected. We’re crunching some numbers (based on what has already been ordered vs. our pre-production numbers) to see if we can release some additional bags for order on Thursday 08/15. Please sign up if you’d like to be notified with news on this."

So yes, it seems they were caught by surprise also. I know you said the notifications weren't working for you, so reach out to them. Kat or someone at TB may be willing to contact you directly or be able to add your email in-house to the notification list if you would like. There's hope yet, so wishing you the best!

[carrot]

Hey, I'm sorry that you weren't able to get in on the preorder. It totally sucks.

BUT,

I think that as @tebnewyork said, you should give the Tom Bihn crew the benefit of the doubt. You're here, interacting with a loyal fan base for a company that has time and time again won us over. You're interacting with the CEO of said company. You're interacting with the shipping lead of said company. You're being heard by the president and founder of said company. You might as well hear what they have to say.

When you're a small company that's trying to run sustainably, engaging your enthusiasts, provide good work-life balance for employees, and still create products that are at the top of their class, you're not always going to be able to please everybody.

There is a limited production capacity for the amount of bags they are able to make by late October which is less than two months away, maybe 45 days. They still have to balance that with keeping an inventory in stock for the winter holiday season. Tom Bihn offers a lot of different products and most of them are pretty complicated to build. All of those have to be well-stocked on the shelves before Thanksgiving.

The travel and bag aficionado community have mostly centered around the idea that a good travel bag is a clamshell, has organization, is wildly overbuilt, and has a laptop compartment.

For a legendary maker/designer like Tom Bihn to throw their hat into the ring is a big splash in a larger community outside of the typical Tom Bihn enthusiast market. In the excitement leading up to the release you could see the water churning.

It's easy to see (in retrospect) how the Synik release did not go the same as other preorders offered prior. It happens. It doesn't make any sense for Tom Bihn to accept more orders at this time, but I see now on the preorder page that they are working to release more bags for a late November delivery. They are really trying to accommodate this outsized demand.

I have also backed a lot of Kickstarters. I still back a lot of Kickstarters. A lot of them ask for a reasonable production round, $30-50k of merchandise. A good number of them capture some internet fascination, and explode to hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars. The design team is overjoyed, then quickly overwhelmed. With more money, they can go back to the drawing board and make the product even better! With a larger production order, they can offer more colorways and optional accessories! They invest in better tooling, take an extra round or two or three or four at EVT and DVT. They run out of money. They seek additional funding by launching an IndieGoGo page for preorders. The perfect product is now a compromise. The product team is world-weary and exhausted, long tired of chasing their original product dream. Eventually they finally deliver their commitment to their crowdsourced investors, but a year or two late (I'm still waiting, five years later, for a particular Kickstarter.) Backers aren't happy, because the vision they pitched is nowhere to be seen in the delivered product. The project owners disappear. There's no accountability, a bad product, and no warranty.

Tom Bihn is not one of those companies. Tom Bihn does not make its customers unwitting beta testers. Nik and Mr. Bihn release only fully developed, finished products. Tom Bihn only commits to timelines that they can achieve. And unlike Kickstarters, Tom Bihn has real customer service and a real warranty.