Experimenting with new fabrics & your thoughts on the Lifetime Guarantee

[Chicagoan]

I'm going to veer off topic, my apologies. Less about materials and the lifetime guarantee, I've been feeling that there has been so many new designs in limited runs that it's difficult to decide if it's right for you and to get your hands on it. There is so much hype about new designs and only having one or two chances to get it makes it difficult. It's a little anxiety inducing trying to get that new color or new design around release day, where it could be gone forever and not made again. Things selling out just minutes after going live. The more limited items that come along, the less interested I am in trying to acquire them.

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+1 to this.

I won’t be participating in the debut day sales of the Shadow Guide 33 and 23.

Today I have a backup Luminary 15 coming in the mail to me and that might be the last bag I buy for awhile.

I just don’t care to get my hopes up in anticipation for weeks only to have them crushed within 90 seconds of an item becoming available for sale.


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[Darcy]

Okay, here’s what we’ve learned thanks to your feedback: many of you would like the chance to try different materials while many of you aren’t interested in that. That’s all okay, we think, because we’re offering options for everyone: we’ll of course continue to offer what we offer now and some new stuff here and there for those who’d like to try it out.

And for those of you who are interested in trying bags in some new materials — we’ll make sure to carefully and thoughtfully (and, you know us, very lengthily) explain the pros and cons of each material, any extra care that may be necessary to aid its longevity, and generally what you can expect in terms of looks, graceful aging and length of life. And, again, you know us: we thoroughly test materials (sometimes for years) before they’re offered to you. That’s not going to change.

Our Lifetime Guarantee has not changed; any bags in new materials that we offer would be covered by our same Lifetime Guarantee, which covers defects in materials and workmanship for the life of a bag. Note that our Lifetime Guarantee does not now, nor ever has, covered normal wear and tear: what we’re talking about here is that some of these new materials might show that “wear and tear” noticeably early than the über-durable materials we currently and more typically utilize. So we’d also make sure to say something on the product page like: “Natural, undyed hemp is a beautiful fabric and quite durable; please note that we can’t be responsible for beet stains, a takeout container gone wrong, or your pup chewing a hole in the bag after the takeout container gone wrong incident leaves some enchilada sauce in the bottom of the bag, but we’d be glad to repair/patch up your bag for a very reasonable charge as long as we get a photo of the responsible pup.” I mean, the same is true for any of our other bags really. It’s just that natural, undyed hemp may show a stain more easily, and while that’s probably obvious, we’d point that out. (I’m just using hemp as an example; there aren’t any hemp bags in the works!)

Not to take some of the excitement away, but we don’t really have plans to release tons of new stuff in new materials or anything and I’m sorry if my post implied that. There will potentially be a Design Lab take on the Packing Cube Shoulder Bag that’ll be offered in a very nice ripstop material we’ve been testing for over six months now — no real caveats with that material, as based on our considerable testing we expect it to perform quite similarly to our 210d ballistic. It’s a version of the PCSB that goes back to the old strap attachment style — a lot of the time, our new designs and materials offerings are intended to answer the design challenges or requests you guys share with us!

[b1gsky]

@Darcy Love that you’re offering the Design Lab PCSBs with the old attachment points!! Any hints what colors might be available in that new fabric?

[marbenais]

I agree that the older materials have a longevity that I haven’t experienced with the 525 ballistic - as much as I dislike the fur-magnetic part of Cordura, I’ve washed my Imago probably a dozen times and used it very hard and it doesn’t show any wear except on the plastic buckles. 1050 ballistic is only destructible by Rosalind the very determined Puggle pictured below, if there’s food in a closed bag.



For Halcyon (well, actually it was Dyneema at the time of purchase) for exterior fabrics, I’ve accepted the lightweight bag in exchange for less resistance to wear-and-tear. It’s a fair trade off for me because the bags are very packable and light. I don’t get it for the same use as a bag for which I would select 1050.

However, as much as I love the feel of the 525 and colors of it, it hasn’t had even the wear of the 200 Halcyon in my experience. Hard objects on the inside of bags form marks on the outside (water bottles, Kindle in the Side Effect or Side Kick, laptop without a soft case, etc) after just a few uses, with any color, and abrasive surfaces scuff up and make fuzzy the outsides of bags (concrete, unfinished wood, brick - which didn’t affect even Cordura at all).

I would hesitate to purchase a bag with a exterior fabric even less structured than the 525. I completely understand the production and logistics behind limiting fabric offerings of a bag to one type, but I really wish I could get 1050 options for just a few more bags. I love the idea of experimenting with new fabrics but not at the expense of the older, mainstay, durable ones.

[Perseffect]

I agree that the older materials have a longevity that I haven’t experienced with the 525 ballistic - as much as I dislike the fur-magnetic part of Cordura, I’ve washed my Imago probably a dozen times and used it very hard and it doesn’t show any wear except on the plastic buckles. 1050 ballistic is only destructible by Rosalind the very determined Puggle pictured below, if there’s food in a closed bag.



For Halcyon (well, actually it was Dyneema at the time of purchase) for exterior fabrics, I’ve accepted the lightweight bag in exchange for less resistance to wear-and-tear. It’s a fair trade off for me because the bags are very packable and light. I don’t get it for the same use as a bag for which I would select 1050.

However, as much as I love the feel of the 525 and colors of it, it hasn’t had even the wear of the 200 Halcyon in my experience. Hard objects on the inside of bags form marks on the outside (water bottles, Kindle in the Side Effect or Side Kick, laptop without a soft case, etc) after just a few uses, with any color, and abrasive surfaces scuff up and make fuzzy the outsides of bags (concrete, unfinished wood, brick - which didn’t affect even Cordura at all).

I would hesitate to purchase a bag with a exterior fabric even less structured than the 525. I completely understand the production and logistics behind limiting fabric offerings of a bag to one type, but I really wish I could get 1050 options for just a few more bags. I love the idea of experimenting with new fabrics but not at the expense of the older, mainstay, durable ones.

This is my experience too with 525. Would gladly see this replaced with something more durable (from an easily marked point of view). Such a shame as I love 1050 and hoped it would just be a more flexible version of that.


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[ceb]

I have to toss my two cents worth in here (currently on sale for a penny).

I bought a bunch of LL Bean over the years and used their warranty exactly once - when a zipper broke due to what was undoubtedly a manufacturer's defect. I've also worn out a lot of Bean stuff and tossed it because - like you said - nothing lasts forever.

However, the day that LL Bean dumped their warranty was the day that I tossed their catalogs, blocked their emails and vowed never to buy from them again.

Why? Because if that warranty worked for the 40 years that I was buying from them, it can only mean that they are saying "we don't believe in our products any longer."

The same holds true for companies like Tumi.

My take is that TB should experiment with new fabrics, but you need to create a new line to clearly differentiate the products without that warranty - and the tag inside should say the same.

[BWeaves]

I buy TB products because I expect them to be practically bulletproof.

If you want to experiment with other more delicate materials, can you do it under a different brand name? That way it's obvious which guarantee goes with which products. Sort of like the Skookum dog line?

[woppinger]

the day that LL Bean dumped their warranty was the day that I tossed their catalogs, blocked their emails and vowed never to buy from them again

LL Bean (as well as REI, etc.) were forced to change their warranty policies because people were badly abusing them - sending back things they picked up at yard sales or thrift stores for replacement with new items, ordering a bunch of gear for a camping trip and returning it all when they got back home, etc. - I'm quite sure they would still do the right thing for an honest customer with a truly defective product.

[JRH]

I don't think I would be interested in products with a different warranty and don't really need different fabrics. I buy Tom Bihn bags because they won't ever let me down.

[hdavim]

I’m in favor of new materials and do not see this as a change in the warranty, I’m reading this thread with the clarifications to the original post.

I see it as a lifetime warranty against defects in material or manufacturing, waxed canvass fading with time is not a defect in material; jeans also fade with time and in sunlight, quality leather (or metal) develops a patina of scratches, discoloration, etc, over time and that adds character to my mind and shows that the material is natural. And ultralight fabric sometimes tears over time. It’s not a defect.

Anyway, that’s my vote. I also don’t see different materials as necessarily a decrease in quality, I’m thinking linen compared to cotton or stainless steel compared to cast iron pans.

[Darcy]

I’m in favor of new materials and do not see this as a change in the warranty, I’m reading this thread with the clarifications to the original post.

I see it as a lifetime warranty against defects in material or manufacturing, waxed canvass fading with time is not a defect in material; jeans also fade with time and in sunlight, quality leather (or metal) develops a patina of scratches, discoloration, etc, over time and that adds character to my mind and shows that the material is natural. And ultralight fabric sometimes tears over time. It’s not a defect.

Anyway, that’s my vote. I also don’t see different materials as necessarily a decrease in quality, I’m thinking linen compared to cotton or stainless steel compared to cast iron pans.

That's pretty much how we see it too And better put than my original pre-clarifications post!